Nail Notes--July & September, 2003

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:32:19 -0600

Nail Notes July 10, 2003.  Editor:  Rolland Meyers <Rolland@RollandMeyers.com>

Some important nail news from Charles and Cheryl Johnson of Montana <haskell@centurytel.net>

As reported in the last Nail Notes Charles and Cheryl really get out
there and hike a lot looking for nails. Not just in the ties in the
roadbeds, but in the gullys and canyons along the right of way where old
ties have been -with the aid of gravity- dumped. They found the
previously unreported 1929 and 1945 (05) square indents in the Northern
Pacific poles and documented those finds with mile posts and photos.

Now, in some recent trips on the Great Northern, Charles and Cheryl have
found pole nails used by them also!! These have gone unreported for all
this time, but once they found a few they have been back a few times to
different Great Northern trackage and have found several pole nails used
by the Great Northern. More news of these finds in the next editon of
Nail Notes.

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The 2003 Summer Date Nail Show.
Friday and Saturday July 25 and 26, 2003
American Legion Hall, Ellsworth, KS
Host: Marvin Bush (913-472-4274)

Set up Thursday July 24, after 4pm
Show hours: 8am-5:30pm Friday; 8am-12 noon Saturday

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More news from the Great Northern. A variation of the 1930 (07) 2 x 1/4
rr, stl. has been found and authenticated as being pulled in at least
two states. Minnesota and Montana. I was sent a variation of the nail by
Wayne Bauer <wtombauer@aol.com>.

Wayne and his son, Curtis, have pulled their own GN nails. But I had
never seen the variation of the 30 two inch nail that he sent me a year
or two ago. Now, from Montana I find that Charles and Cheryl Johnson
<haskell@centruytel.net> have also pulled this variety. Distinct
differences between the two.

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/NailNotes/1930(07)var.jpg

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Has anyone out there ever seen a 1977 or 1981 (37) 1 1/2 x 1/4 round
raised, twisted shank, steel nail (Canadian)? I have recently found the
76 and 82 but still looking for anyone that has seen or has the 77
and/or 81. Please contact me if you have. <rolland@rollandmeyers.com>

#############.#.###.#####

From Chris Sandifer <chris.sandifer@pgnmail.com> tel. 919-662-3112:

Pole nails wanted:

Potosi 33
Baxco 30, 35, 37, 38, 39
Pacific Coast all dates after 30
National Lumber 35, 37, 38 Steel indent
California Edison 32 & 42
Century Wood Preserving any date
Prettyman 30

Extra pole nails for trade

Gulf States
International Creosote
Prettyman (couple of 28's)

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While on this subject, for those of you who have a want list, or a for
sale or trade list, Jeff Oaks has a page on his web site deidicated to this:

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/Trade/Ads.htm

Let him know (oaks@uindy.edu) if you want your list included.

#######.#####.#######

The latest edition of the Nailer News (Vol. 33 Number 2) was mailed to TDNCA members. Twenty-eight pages! The lastest edition had the following:

p. 1.   Anyone Have any Clues as to how this Nail was Used? by Charles Sebesta.  This talks about the various type (18C) nails that have been found prior to 1936.

p. 2.   Notes from the Editors Desk.

pp. 3-8.   It was a fun show. With comments and photos of the last Nail Show (North Carolina)

pp. 9-12   Great Northern Pole Nails: They do Exist. An article, with photos by Charles and Cheryl Johnson of Montana about pole nails that they pulled and documented on the Great Northern.

p. 13   Northern Pacific Pole Nails: 29 & 43. About some unreported pole nails found on the NP line in Montana. By Charles and Cjheryl Johnson

p. 14   Butte Anaconda & Pacific: New Finds by Charles and Cheryl Johnson regarding some unreported nails that they pulled from this line.

pp. 15-17   Pole Nails and the Companies that used them. By Bill McClellan. Lists pole nails for several setsand asks for help in correcting those listings.

p. 18   A New Variety by George Oliva lists and shows a few new variations for the 1946 rr (07) used by the Lehigh and Hudson River RR.

pp. 19-20   1916 -1917- 1918 and 1920 (07) 2 1/2 x 1/4 rr, stl GMís, by Rolland Meyers asks if this nail exists.

p. 20   Ad for Date Nails and Railroad Tie Preservation by Jeff Oaks.  Available for $25.

pp. 21-23   Bob Thorpe: A collection of German Date Nails that hasnít been equaled. Three pages of photographs of the collection.

pp. 24-27   List of New Members; Former Members welcomed back; In Memory; Address changes; a map showing the motels available in Salina, KS for the upcoming nail show in Ellsworth. (July 25-26); Classified Ads.

p. 28   Information regarding the up coming 2003 Summer Nail show in Ellsworth, KS.

For those or you who are not TDNCA members and may wish to subscribe and join,  go here:
http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/Resources.htm#TDNCA

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Note from Jeff:

George Oliva alerted me to an eBay lot of two Illinois Central nails---a
cross 19 and octagon 20---which ultimately fetched $1,737!  At $868.50,
this is the highest price ever paid for a date nail.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2180333841

The Illinois Central, fearing that the dates on the nails would become
obliterated in time, had each year's head made in a different
shape---round for 1912, diamond in '13, square in '14, pentagon in '15,
etc.  They used these nails only in special test section, too, making
some of them very rare.  I know that only about 3 of the 19's were
known.  Two of these are not in great shape, but a friend of Dave
Parmalee's foud an unused example at a flea market for a dollar.  He
sold it to Dave for $200.00.  That sure sounds like a bargain now!  The
octagon 20's are rare, too.  Interestingly, a couple were found on the
Nevada Northern in the 1970's.  They are probably nail factory mix-ups.

The seller of the recent eBay lot had no idea they were rare.  Here is
the note he sent to George:

GEORGE - I HAD NO IDEA OF THEIR VALUE - THEY WERE FOUND IN AN OLD HOMEMADE
TOOL CHEST THAT WAS LEFT BY MY GRANDFATHER. THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE BOX FOR
ALL OF MY 56 YEARS AND MANY YEARS BEFORE THAT. IT WAS JUST A FLUKE THAT I
FOUND THEM AND DID NOT THROW THEM AWAY. THEY LOOKED LIKE THEY MAY BE
COLLECTABLE, SO I DECIDED TO LIST THEM. YOU KNOW THE REST. MY GRANDFATHER
WORKED FOR A LUMBER YARD MOST OF HIS ADULT LIFE AND I IMAGINE THAT  IS HOW
HE ACQUIRED THE NAILS. ALTHOUGH I REALLY DO NOT KNOW. THANKS FOR YOUR
INTEREST

So who bought them?  I am instructed to keep quiet about it for now, but
I can say that three collectors are involved with the winning bid.

One other item:  A collector in Colorado called me a couple days ago.
He would like to know what company used the Empire pole tag shown at the
bottom of page 226 in Date Nails Complete.  It may be the Empire
District Electric Co. which served Joplin, MO, but this is just a guess.

---Jeff

Jeff Oaks, Associate Professor
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Indianapolis
1400 E. Hanna Ave.
Indianapolis, IN 46227
317-788-3454; oaks@uindy.edu



Subject:Nail Notes 7-30-03
Date:Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:19:06 -0600

#########.######.#. Nail Notes. July 30, 2003 ###.######.#######

Donald Chapman wrote:

I am looking for pole nails from the General/Ohio poles. Dates I need:
2 1/2 x 1/4 sq I stl (07) 34-35-36-37-38-39-40:v-41-42-43
Also, need 2 1/2 x 1/4 sq I stl (08) 44-45-46

Contact Don Chapman at email: <brutus007@dragonbbs.com>
or P.O. Box 385 - Piketon, Ohio 45661. Thanks

#########.#.#.#.#######.#.#.##.####.#.###########

A interesting note from Steve McCue regarding a web page showing a very
OLD nail:
<http://www.websterzdesign.com/cgi-bin/carolyn.pl?read=8913>
Any one with any ideas on this nail? - good photos of whatever it is?

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An email from Charles and Cheryl Johnson in Kila, Montana <haskell@centurytel.net>

The day started out really bad. Got past the gate ok but just around the
first corner there was a tree across the road. It is over a mile back in
there and of course, I left the chain saw at home. We just about left
because it is a real steep walk for another 3/4 of a mile to get to the
tracks. But since we drove 80 miles to get to this spot, we thought we
would hoof it up the hill to where we were going to hunt for nails. Damn
glad we did. One of the better days that we have had. But after we got
to where we were going to start looking I found I had left my glasses in
the truck along with my chewing tobacco. So now, not only was it a long
hard walk, but I couldn't see and I was going to be irritable from the
lack of nicotine. I found an 09 first thing, and while I was trying to
dig out the end to see if it had a letter nail in it, Cheryl found a
couple ties, one with a P8 with an 09 in the top of it, and a P10 in
another tie that had to be dug out. That is what she was doing in the
picture. If you look at the pictures labeled P8 & 09 Same Tie really
close you'll see the tie with a nail in the top and one in the end. It
is not unusual to find something like a P8 with an 09 in the top, for
the letter nail is put in at the Somers Tie Plant and could have been
done the year before the tie was placed. But what is unusual was the 09
that I found first thing had a T10 in the end of that tie. Don't know
how this could have happened. In other words, they placed the tie in 09
then took it back to the Somers Tie Plant a year later and put the T10
in the end of it. - Wrong. Found the T9 tie in a kind of muddy creek
with an 09 in the top. That's why the tie is wet. Look at the 09s in the
styrofoam. Looks like two different types to me. Good thing it was down
hill on the way out of there. This is one of the roughest days that
we've had. But well worth the anxiety. (and Charlie didn't even get cranky)

Re the A nails. I wonder what kind of information that Charles has that
led him to MT Power. When you find out, let me know. I have a feeling
there is a lot more to this story than we now know. Does he have any
idea what constitutes a set and what type they are. The A nail that
doesn't have feet is definitely an (07). When you get the nails that I
sent you look at them real close and you will see a white residue on the
shanks. This is indicative of every nail that we have ever pulled off of
the Butte Anaconda & Pacific line, and we have never seen it anywhere
else in the state. I think the reason for this is that Butte had several
smelters as did Anaconda and the pollution in that Valley that was
emitted from these smelters is legendary. They had to clean Butte, the
town of Prosperity, and Anaconda as part of a super fund site that is
still ongoing.  In other words, grass still doesn't grow there today.
(wash your hands after handling the nails) I'm not so sure that the (07)
A nail didn't come from there also. But, I can't prove it. But, they
were in the same can as the other A nail, and the code nails. A lot of
these code nails are coated with the same white powdery substance. Which
leads me to believe that they all came from one place, within a 30 to 40
mile radius of the towns of Butte & Anaconda. It's just a theory, but as
good as any so far. This trunk is the most fun we've had in a long time,
but it is really unfortunate that he wasn't more thorough in the
documentation of his nail collecting, because I think we all lost a
bunch of valuable information.

We are going to head out tomorrow, to re search an area along the old
Fort Steele trail, where we found the F4. Maybe we can get lucky there
tomorrow also. This is going to be our last weekend here hunting for
nails for a couple weeks. Next weekend we are going to the Great
Northern Historical Society convention in Havre MT and while we are
there we are going to search the High Line for nails. On the way back,
we are going to drop down into Butte on the Butte Division of the GN and
see if we can find some of the L nails that Arn thinks were placed on
that division's line. If they are there, we'll find them. Keep us posted
email wise, we'll check our email every night. Most motels now provide
some form of internet hookups and we are taking the laptop with us.

Charlie & Cheryl

Ed. Note: to see the nails mentioned please see:
http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/NailNotes/NailsMP1155.jpg

#########:########.####.########.#

Kenneth and Betty Moser <kbmoser@insightbb.com> are on a rather unusual
quest.  They want to pull a few nails from ties in all of the fifty
states. Yes, that includes Alaska and Hawaii. Believe it or not they are
now down to five states left to go:  Michigan; South Carolina; Delaware;
Hawaii and Alaska.

If anyone on this list has knowledge of nails in ties in any of these
states they would certainly appreciate that information.  This would
involve a trip to that area so specific locations are a must. It does
not matter which railroad, or what years.  They just want to complete
pulling a couple of nails in each state. Please contact them at the
above email address.

#######.#.#########.#.##

Does anyone on this email list live in Duluth Missabi and Iron Range
Railway country? I am trying to track down a couple of the type (47)
1944 nails that they used. There are three varieties listed and would
like to locate them if anyone has extras. Please contact:
<rolland@rollandmeyers.com>

##############.#.######.#####.#.##

Ed. Note: In the last issue of Nailer News I doubted the existence of
the 1916, 17, 18 and 20 type (07) round raised 2 1/2 x 1/4 inch nails
with heavy Gripper Marks. I have since learned, that Arn Kriegh of
Edgemont, SD has that nail in his Union Pacific collection.  Perhaps
others will come forward with examples of the other three nails noted?.

########.#.#####..#####

Scott Weed <nailhunter@houston.rr.com> has a really impressive web site
for pole nails. It can be visited at: http://nailhunter.com.  Well
worth the visit!

######.##.######.#####

For those of you who collect the Union Pacific Foot (switch tie length)
nails you can add a new one to the list. Arn Kriegh found an 18FT nail
that belongs to set #5. It, like the rest of the set is a type (07) 2 x
1/4 rr, stl. nail. It has the heavy GMís.

########.#.####.######

First reports from the Summer Date Nail show in Ellsworth, Kansas are
that it was HOT there, both inside and outside the building! Lots of
trading, bartering, selling and presentations.

Those in attendance, besides the host Marvin Bush, included:

Charles Sebesta; Leon Sorenson; Don Blake; Larry Harvey; Ray Canole; Buz
Johnston; Arn Kriegh; Jerry Waits; Kenley German; Bill Bunch; Lee Doyen;
Dan Dupee; Bill McClellan; some folks from the Kansas Historical Society
and several walk ins. From what I hear Buz Johnston got the first place
for Railroad Nails and Don Blake got first place for Pole nails. Temps
outside the building hit the 100+ mark!!

The next show will be in Portales, New Mexico in the spring. From what I
hear this will be a show that will be held in conjunction with
railroadiana collectors which should attract not only nailers but
collectors of other railroad related items as well. Details will be
relayed as they become available.

######.######.#.###

Nail Notes is edited by Rolland Meyers.  Jeff Oaks <oaks@uindy.edu>
maintains the mailing list.



Subject: Nail Notes 9-9-03
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:33:18 -0600
From: Jeff Oaks <oaks@uindy.edu>

#####.#######.##### Nail Notes 9-9-03 ##.#######.#.#####

In the last issue I noted that in an article I wrote for the Nailer News
I doubted the existence of the 1916, 1917, 1918 and 1920 (07) 2 1/2 x
1/4 inch nails with heavy Gripper Marks (GMís). In the last Nail Notes I
mentioned that Arn Kriegh had found one of them......I neglected to note
which one!! He has the 1918 in his Union Pacific set and recently
acquired it.  So one of the four is indeed an existing nail. Sorry for
the omission of the date in the last issue. [ed.]

########.######.#########.#####.#.#####
"Has anyone seen...":  Some questions I have:

1: Has anyone seen or have in their collection a 1925 (39) 2 x 1/4 round
indent, steel nail attributed to the the Canadian National Railway??

2: Has anyone pulled any of the following nails from the Central of
Vermont. 1946 and 1947 (07) 1 1/2 x 1/4 round raised, steel diamond
point - not chisel point (these were used on the Grand Trunk, but I am
questioning their use on the CV; 1944:b (05) 1 1/2 x 1/4 round raised,
steel. Also, if someone has a variation of the 1942 (05) 1 1/2 x 1/4
round raised, steel nail that they pulled from the CV we need a scan of
that variation.  Hopefully, the :a and :b varieties side by side.

3: A 1953 (18) 2 1/2 x 1/4 square raised, steel nail attributed to the
Santa Fe.

4: A 1941 (05) 1 1/2 x 1/4 round raised, steel with a chisel point. This
nail is attributed to the Grand Trunk.

These are nails that have come into question as to their existence and
use. So any input from any collector would be appreciated. Sometimes
nails are attributed to a set that do not belong.  Sometimes nails are
attributed to a set that do not exist. It is good to have input,
especially of this nature (rapid, electronic communications) where
questions can be answered in days, rather than weeks and months. Thanks
for any reply regarding the above nails. Direct such replies either to
me <rolland@rollandmeyers.com> or Jeff Oaks <oaks@uindy.edu>

#############.#.#.#######.######
Western Union

A note mentioning an article relating to the Western Union set of nails
that was brought to my attention. I have done some research into what
makes up a WU set and, although not complete or final by any means, I
think it is fairly accurate. That research article will hopefully be in
the next Nailer News. The article I was made aware of was in TRAINS
MAGAZINE Septermber issue on page 62. I have not read the article yet
but apparently the reason that the WU set of nails stops for the most
part in the late 40's is that the contract between the railroads and WU
to maintain poles that they shared ran out in 1949 and for the most part
those contracts were not renewed. Facts like these are important to
learn of, as they explain so many things relating to the use of nails.

If others reading this have date nail related facts and articles that
would be of interest to the rest of the subscribing group I would
certainly appreciate hearing of them and will put them in the next
edition of Nail Notes. Contact: <rolland@rollandmeyers.com>.

##########.#.#.#.########.###.#
Large collection up for sale

Leo Speicher (no email address), son of John "Spike" Speicher, an old
time date nail collector, is selling some of his late father's
collections. I purchased a set or two myself and can say the nails I got
were of good quality. Most of these sets are not complete but some of
them have key nails in them.  The sets that Leo still has for sale include:

Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific
Chicago North Western
Chicago, South Shore and South Bend
Denver and Salt Lake
Des Moines and Central Iowa
Detroit, Toledo and Ironton
Cincinnati Northern
Grand Trunk Western
Detroit and Toledo Shore Line
Escanaba and Lake Superior
Indiana Harbor Belt
Johnstown and Stony Creek
Kanawa, Glenn Jean and Eastern
Lake Erie and Western
Mason City and Clear Lake
Manistique and Lake Superior
Moshassuck Valley
New Zealand
Rahway Valley
Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac
Rutland Railway
Northern Pacific
Oregon and Northwestern
Pennsylvania Railroad
Toledo, Peoria and Western
Tonopah and Goldfield
Wellsville, Addison and Galeton
Western Maryland

If anyone might be interested in contacting Leo regarding purchasing any
of the above sets he can be reached at:
412-885-0978 (home) or 814-694-3547 (cabin he is spending time at).

#########.###.#####.#######
Creosote ad uses date nails

Bill Bunch <b86bunch@yahoo.com> has run across an interesting creosote
ad.  He writes "In my search for Cyclone Fence and other collectible
advertising I ran accross this neat one from USS Creosote Oil.  The ad
refers to date nails without ever really mentioning them.  Only
"nailers" would know how this guy can tell the dates of these ties!!"

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/NailNotes/USSCreosote.jpg

#########.###.#####.#######
The Big Three...

Steve McCue <snm1023@msn.com> dug up this button "at an old long gone RR
site's dump".  It reads:  "Big 3 Cincinnati".  We all know about the Big
Four, but what about the Big 3?  Steve thinks the button is RR related,
but I am skeptical.  Can anyone help?

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/NailNotes/Big3.jpg

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Bruce Gordon (Kentucky) wants to trade.

Bruce finally has an e-mail address!  <gordon6548@bellsouth.net>.  He wrote:
"I will trade L&N 20-39 and IC 48-60 for just about any other  date
nails. I would like to find someone who has some Central Vermount to trade."

#########.###.#####.#######
Unused SP nails!

E.A. Guidry <cajuncre@bellsouth.net> would like to sell his nails:

"I have:
59 raised date unused (undriven)
201 incused (raised date) also undriven nails - mostly SP line nails
Dates ranging from 1925 - 1926
Additionally, I have about 35 various other early dates from the 20's to
the 50's.

Having worked for SP for 34 years, I have other items such as switch
keys and signal locks."

------------------------------------
Nail Notes is edited by:
Rolland Meyers
Oakland, CA
Rolland@RollandMeyers.com

and is mailed by:
--
Jeff Oaks, Associate Professor
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Indianapolis
1400 E. Hanna Ave.
Indianapolis, IN 46227
317-788-3454; oaks@uindy.edu

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