Nail Notes--November-December, 2002

Subject: Nail Notes 11-22-02
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:05:58 -0600
From: Jeff Oaks <oaks@uindy.edu>

Hello nailers,
     Since it is clear that I just don't have the time to edit Nail Notes, I have given the job to Rolland Meyers <RollandMeyers@compuserve.com>.  From now on, you can send your submissions to either me <oaks@uindy.edu> or to Rolland.  He will piece together the issue, and e-mail it to me.  I will then forward it to you all.
     I wrote some of this issue, and Rolland the rest.  We'll try to make this a monthly event from now on!
   Thanks for your patience,
   ---Jeff Oaks

------------------------------------------------------------
Two issues of Nailer News have been mailed out since May.  Both have 24 pages.

Spring 2002 (vol. 32, no. 2)
1-4    A Very Interesting Chanute Letter
          Jeff Oaks
5      What Hath Retirement Brought?
          Charles Sebesta
6-8    Unreported Nail:  1939 (18B) 2 1/2 x 3/16 rr stl Southern Pacific
          Rolland Meyers  (yes--it is a post-1936 (18B)!  w/pics)
9, 12  From the Editor's Desk
          Charles Sebesta
10-12  Taking Another Look at the Louisville and Nashville's Use of Date Nails
          Bruce Gordon
13-14  Snapshots from the Spring Show in Wellington (KS)
          Steve & Susie Cochran
15-16  A Nail Tale
           Rolland A. Meyers
18-21  Nail Notes
           Jeff Oaks
Other pages have ads, new members,...

Summer 2002 (vol. 32, no. 3)
1-2    Pole Nails used by the Pacific Gas & Electric Company
          Rolland Meyers
3-4    Could These Be L&N Codes?
          Charles Sebesta
5-7    Corporate Cooperation
          Jeff Oaks  (concerns Frisco, Rock Island, C&EI)
8      From the Editor's Desk
          Charles Sebesta
9      three photos of 11's:  two B&O, one IC, showing they are different.*
10-11  Summer show photos & info, Buffalo, WY
12-13  A Few Unlisted Nails and Variations (photos)
          Tom Meyer
14-15  Octave Chanute and the First Santa Fe Date Nails
          Jeff Oaks
16-17  Reprints from Wood Preserving News, 1929, 1926 (Jerry Waits)
18-19  Hubbard Co. catalog pages, from 1937 and 1955 (Jerry Penry)
21-23  Railway Tie Association tie specifications, 1984 (Jerry Waits)
Other pages have ads, new members,...

*In a previous Nail Notes I wrote that the B&O and IC 11's are the same.
 My mistake--they are definitely different nails.

------------------------------------------------------------
I spent days updating the manuscript of the nail book for the fifth
printing.  All the corrections and additions I made have been published
either in Nail Notes or in the Nailer News, so those of you who already
have a copy don't need to get another one.  If you haven't bought a copy
of my book, now is the time.  Go here for details:

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/Resources.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I (Jeff) have written an article giving a quick history of date
nails.  It is appearing in Spikes, Ties & Rails, the newsletter of the
North American Railroad Maintenance of Way Association.  I guess it
isn't THAT short, because it is appearing in installments.  When the
second is out, I'll put the article on my web page.  The web address of
the NARRMOWA is:

http://www.drbens.com/narrmowa.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
Copper River Northwestern Railway (Alaska)

Some of you will remember the nails I reported from this railroad---type
(07) square raised from the teens and twenties---in the --- Nail Notes.
I received a note from Jim Wright <jwalaska@matnet.com> in June.  He
wrote "Jeff, I have sent your email to Don Holland. He is the person
that found  the spikes. He says there  are nails for all years 1916 to
1928 and maybe  more. There are several people with hundreds of the
nails. Don has over 300. Jim"

If this is true, then the rare 21 has been found on a second railroad!
The square raised 21 is presently known only from the Norfolk & Western,
where it is rare.

The photo of Alaskan nails I showed you before, from an eBay auction, is here:

http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/Photos/Alaska.jpg

He sent me this note a little earlier regarding the history of the line:

Jeff, Am sending a pic for you. You probably know the history of the
Copper River and Northwestern railroad. Started in 1906 and shut down in
1939. All spikes have raised letters and look to be the same mfg. The
book "the Copper Spike" tells the history of this RR. Let me know. I
will be coming to the national and can bring some with me.  They were
picked up by a friend of mine in the late 60's. He was doing soils work
for the State of Alaska Dept. of Highways when a road was proposed to
Cordova.   Jim

------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Johnson <haskell@centurytel.net> wrote in June regarding the
location of Milwaukee Road nails in the tie:

...on these copper nails, we picked them up in eastern Montana on a rail
that is slated to be removed.  There were both copper and steel nails.
Steel nails ran from 31 to 34 and were found on the outside of the east
rail about an inch to 2 inch from the track plate.  The copper nails are
raised copper  ranging from 34 to 39.  they were found BETWEEN the
rails.  Is this uncommon for eastern MT?  Your book doesn't say.  This
line is between Moore & Glengarry south of Havre MT.  Picked a little
over 200 nails during the time we were gone and had a great time.
Doesn't get any better than this.

-----------------------------------------------------
Date nails want and trade

I want 21,22,23-42,43,44,46-58,59,and 60 these are all Norfolk  And
Western nails.I have many of all the other years I would like to trade
         Thank You Orville <ORVILLEG1@cs.com>
------------------------------------------------------

George Oliva <gro1@infi.net> writes of his recent nail hunt along the Erie
Railroads Newark branch prior to departing on a flight out of Newark. . .

I explored the area on both sided of the locked up draw bridge, the west
side is really in a very bad area, even early on a Sunday morning I was
uncomfortable in that area, ROW is full of junk…even though the track IS
in use. I pulled a few common ERIE nails and then went across the river
to the East side. Here the neighborhood is much better and again I
pulled some common ERIE nails. Just before the locked up draw bridge the
line goes over a street on a low steel bridge, three tracks there, two
for the bridge to nowhere and one for a siding that still has a
customer. I went up the embankment to have a look and  there were no
nails on any of the three tracks but on the two unused tracks to the
bridge over the street something caught my eye. On the street overpass,
there was rusty sheet metal over the ties, I guess to prevent ballast
and  "stuff"" from falling on unsuspecting cars, this sheet metal was
NAILED down with DATE NAILS, about one every 5 inches on two tracks both
inside and outside the rails! The years were '35, '44, '45 and some
others as well. I pulled a few as it was getting very close to my flight
time and they were all in VERY GOOD condition. I'll have to return here
when I have some more time and pull a bunch of "trader" nails! There are
probably several hundred nails in this one spot!

-------------------------------------------------------
Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range

From Michigan, Mark Gilles <mgilles@gundluth.org> updates us on finds
and opinions regarding the DM&IR nails.  This report is from August:

I was always curious as to why the DM&IR would use both square and round
raised 28 nails. I also thought it was interesting that I had never
found anything but the square ones in all my miles of walking.  Well,
the mystery has been solved!

Last week, I walked a branch of the DM&IR that I'd never walked before.
This line had seen regular maintainance, and date nails were pretty
scarce. But most of those that -were- there, were the round raised 28s!
A little research revealed the fact that this line was formerly the
Duluth, Missabe, and Northern, and that the line I'd always walked
previously was the former Duluth and Iron Range.  The two merged into
the DM&IR in 1938.  So.......in my opinion, the round 28 is properly
called a DM&N nail, and the square 28 is properly called a D&IR nail.

Also interesting, is the fact that the  'P' nails I found on my July
nailing trip were found along with a 1938 nail, the year of the merger.
What significance this has, if any, is unknown.  But, bit by bit, all
the little mysteries are solved.

Incidentally, I still haven't found the elusive 24, or the (47) 44 either.

----------------------------------------
Rolland Meyers <rollandmeyers@compuserve.com> has a correction for the
DM&IR set.  Eliminate the 45:b (47) nail.  The 45:a was used by the DM&IR.

-----------------------------------------
In a lengthy article written by Glen Icanberry <gsicanberry@dslestreemcom>
he relates a story about the crew of the Santa Fe on the Valley Division in
California in 1986 and how they would stop the train en route to check for
date nails.....(here are a few excerpts)......

....this particular crew wanted to make the roundtrip to Alpaugh.   So,
under the stars, at about two or three in the morning, Scott dutifully
stopped the short train several times, so that the conductor and
brakemen could go behind the caboose and pull  out date nails. . . .
....Shortly after completing the drop, the trainmen were making the air,
after coupling up to  leave Hollis.  All Scott could see that night were
the the trainmen's lanterns back in the dark alongside the train. .
.Scott witnessed two of the lanterns disappear, but a third came running
toward the locomotive. . . [The] Conductor Tom . . . was that lone
lantern, and he ran up under Scott's window, all out of breath, and
obviously excited.  Tom's first words were, "I found a ten!!!"   As he
proudly held up a date nail at arm's length for Scott to see.  Tom
related that the date nail was on top of a decaying tie, and he had
pulled it with his fingers.  The other two lanterns had gone out of the
engineer's view, because they were hoping to find more"tens.". . .
---------------
Ed.note.  This was a fairly long story so the portions relating to nails
was excerpted.  But Glen might give some thought to joining the TDNCA
and submitting the article to be included in  their quarterly Nailer
News magazine.  It was just to long to include the entire article in
Nailer Notes.

--------------------------------
Speaking of Nailer Notes.  Jeff Oaks has asked me to try editing the NN
for a while.  Jeff is busy with a career, while still trying to write
articles for the Nailer News along with upgrading and maintaining his
Three Volume set DATE NAILS and RAILROAD TIE PRESERVATION.  I hope you
will all bear with me while I try to sort through items that are
submitted and condense them to a reasonable size while still passing on
to others the significant portions relating to datenails.
Thanks, Rolland A. Meyers



Subject: Nail Notes 12-18-02
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:09:53 -0600
From: Jeff Oaks <oaks@uindy.edu>
Organization: University of Indianapolis
To: undisclosed-recipients:;

######.##.####.#..NAIL  NOTES..##.#####.##.#### December 18, 2002

The March nail show will be in North Carolina!

National Railroad Date Nail Show
Sponsored by the Texas Date Nail Collectors Assn.
BUY-SELL-TRADE Railroad date nails and related railroad memorabilia
Show Dates: March 14-15, 2003
Location: American Legion Post 342
             1024 Lincolnton Rd.
             Salisbury, NC 28144
May set up on March 13 between 4pm and 6pm.
Rental fee $25.00 per 8' table.
Table rental fee includes free NC BBQ Lunch on Friday for exhibitors and
their guests.
To reserve tables and receive free information packet about Salisbury
and surrounding area contact: Allen Stanley at (336) 373-9099 or email <ARS2nd@aol.com>.

############.######.#.#..#######.#####.######.####.######
The Fall issue of Nailer News (Vol. 32 No. 4) was mailed out to members
in late November.  It is twenty four pages containing the following:
1-2     What Constitutes a Variation?
                Charles Sebesta
3-5     When did the Rock Island begin using date nails?
                Jeff Oaks
6-7     From the Editor's Desk
                Charles Sebesta (Editor)
8-9     The Southern Pacific 1929, type (17) 2" Date Nail.
                John Iacovino (also a NYC Update)
10-11   What A Way To Use Those Great Northern Letter-Number Combos.
                William Preston/Charles Sebesta
12-13   A few more seldom seen, unlisted nails, and variations. . .
                Tom Meyer
14-15   Great Northern tie treating before 1902
                Jeff Oaks (also info. on ordering Jeff's fifth printing)
16      Some Thoughts on Date Nails That May Not Belong in Our Santa Fe Collections.
                Charles Sebesta
17      Something New
                Terry Hill
18      Yet Another Chanute Letter
                Jeff Oaks
19      Rolland Meyers Makes Another Find - - In His Own Workshop (Again)!
                Charles Sebesta
20-21    More From The Editors Desk / Date Nail Dispersal Sale
                Charles Sebesta
22-23   Classified Ads/ Spring Show/New Members/Former Members
24      Nailer News Back Issues Availability

############.######.#.#..#######.#####.######.####.######
For those of you who are members of the Texas Date Nail Collectors'
Association, this is the  time to make it easier on ol' Jerry and send
in your $16.00 renewal dues for 2003.  For those who are not members and
who may want to join, now is also the time.  You will receive the
quarterly Nailer News, the Membership List of members,  (this is an
invaluable source for contacts to other nailers), and of course your
membership card in the Association.

Send the check to:
Jerry Waits
501 W. Horton
Brenham, Texas 77833

########.#.#.#.##########..#.######.#.#.##################
Rolland Meyers <rollandmeyers@compuserve.com> has a question for
collectors. Is the 1976 type (37) 1 1/2 x 1/4 round raised twisted shank
nail a valid Algoma Central?  He has done some research and can find no
attribution of this nail to the Algoma.  There may be a possibility that
it is an Ontario Northland nail.  But no substantion has been found in
that case either.  The 2 1/2 inch version was used on the Maine Central
but if anyone has the 1 1/2 inch version Rolland would like to hear from you.

################..#.####.#.##################.#.#########
If there are questions, nail pulling input, want lists, trades wanted,
extra nails available or information that if shared would be beneficial
to the hobby, this is a good place to direct your emails.  Try to keep
the item to a paragraph or two and hopefully we will be able to send
this forum (Nail Notes) out once a month. <rollandmeyers@compuserve.com>
or <oaks@uindy.edu>

########.######..#############.#.#.##########.##.######.##
This note from John Iacovino <John_R._Iacovino@NEWYORKLIFE.COM>
regarding the question of the tie position of Milwaukee nails:  "Copper
nails inside the rail and steel outside.  This has been my experience in
Wisconsin, Montana and Washington state.  I learned ths the hard way.
Was always looking inside the rails until [I] found steel nails on the
outside by accident.  Wonder how many steel nails I missed in the past??
 Not listing the position in  nail texts is a serious omission.
Scanning the entire width of the tie is both time consuming and eye exhausting!!"

(ed note:) I have pulled Milwaukee nails also and found an exception to
the general rule noted by John.  There are always exceptions in nailing!
 While pulling nails at the Washington/Idaho border area I found a
string of round indented coppers from the late 20's outside the rails
with the steel nails.  But noting where nails are located in the tie as
a general guide really helps the next person.

#######.##.##.#####..####.##.###..##.##########..#.#.######
After some research over the past few weeks, and confirmation by several
Milwaukee Road datenail collectors it is established without a doubt
that the 1 1/4 x 3/16 round indent  gm cop (07) 29 belongs to the set.
As with almost all Milwaukee nails there is at least one variety of this
nail, but probably not significant enough to warrant  a separate listing
at this point. So for those that have Jeff Oaks three volume set on Date
Nails you should make the addition of this nail to the set on page 220
of volume II and also add it to the Reverse Listing section on page 177
of volume III.

#############.#..###.######.######...##########.#.##
Larry Fister in Nursing Home (note by Jeff Oaks)

Larry is a long-time nail collector who helped me immensely with my nail
book.  My file of letters we exchanged between 1992 and the present is
about four inches thick!  Larry has cancer, and has been moved to a
nursing home.  His address there is:

Panora Nursing and Rehab Center
805 E. Main
PO Box 69
Panora, IA  50216

#############.##########.#####.#.###.#######.#########
Mark Gilles <mgilles@gundluth.org> has a correction to the Duluth,
Missabe & Iron Range list.  The (06) 51 should be 51:b.  The line (p.
162, volume II) should read:

2 1/2 x 1/4 rnd R   stl (06) 32,34-40,42,46-48,48:b,49,50,51:b,,52-58,61

######.########.######.#.#.#.#########.#.#.############.
Also regarding the DM&IR set of nails.  The 1945 (47) nail used by the
DM&IR is the :a variety only.  The :b variety was used by the LS&I and M&LS.

#######..#.#.#.################################.#
From Terry Gunther <gunner@mcn.net> a collector who specializes in the
nails from the Milwaukee Road comes a want list. I am sure a swap or
sale could be worked out with Terry if you have any of the following:
A8, A9, X9, X10, Z10 and the following code nails: 0, 1, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9,

#############...########.######.##############.#.#.######
another ed.note: for those of you that are wondering...the #. ‘s between
the notes are my attempt to present rails, ties and nails....for those
who are not wondering......THANKS!

###################.##########.#########..##########
A question came to me a week or so ago regarding the Switch Tie (length)
nails used by the Union Pacific.  There are several sets of these nails.
 They are all 2 inches long, all type (07) but the thing that most
people do not realize is that these nails are found in the ENDS of the
ties and not on top like date nails.  So if you have access to old
switches (most new or mainline switches have had tie changes since these
nails were used) on old sidings and can see the ties exposed at the ends
because of erosion, you might check!!  I found several last summer in
the Idaho/Washington border area. [ed.]

#############.#..###.######.######...##########.#.##
For those who might want to order the fifth printing of Jeff Oaks' three
volume book _Date Nails and Railroad Tie Preservation_, which includes
photos, descriptions and id's of most datenails used in N. America, plus
a handy reverse listing (If you have a nail and wondered who used it),
you can still order this for $25.00 from Jeff via PayPal (no credit card
payments) to <oaks@uindy.edu>, or send a check to:  Jeff Oaks /
Department of Mathematics / University of Indianapolis / 1400 E. Hanna
Ave. / Indianapolis, IN 46227.

Note:  The fifth printing is still largely the same book as the first
printing (1999).  The difference is that many minor errors have been
corrrected, and there are some new photos of nails.  So if you already
have a copy from a previous printing and you have kept up with the
Nailer News, you don't need to order this one.
 

---Rolland Meyers
 

-- Nail Notes is mailed by:
Jeff Oaks, Associate Professor
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Indianapolis
1400 E. Hanna Ave.
Indianapolis, IN 46227
317-788-3454; oaks@uindy.edu
 
 
 
 

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